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 Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs

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kps



Join date : 2016-11-10

PostSubject: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-11, 4:16 pm

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Hello members!!  I bought my first fixer upper and it plays with a loud hum so I figured I would start to recap it beginning with the wet electrolytic capacitor. I was hoping someone could explain to me how to replace these two 10-10 mfd 450V electrolytic capacitors.  The original 16 mfd 450V wet electrolytic capacitor was left in place for aesthetics but the wires were cut and replaced with one or both of these Mallorys by somebody else. I have a 16 mfd 450V axial Ecap to replace it with.  If anybody could help me with understanding this I would really appreciate it. Also, in the schematic, if you could point out the wires that I labeled in the photo it would really help me to better read and understand the schematic.  Thanks to anyone willing to help!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-20, 1:00 pm

Thanks Cliff!!! No it did not smoke during the dim bulb test. Should I put the tubes back take it off dim bulb and see if I can locate the source?  Should I start by replacing the caps nearest that area?
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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-20, 1:05 pm

I do have a multi meter so I could test specific areas if want me to.
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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-20, 1:09 pm

I think if it ran with dim bulb then you have caps breaking down under higher voltages. Yes, again check polarities, and resistors in that area. Then insert tubes and run with dim bulb tester for at least a half hour, starting with the 25 watt bulb, watch for smoke. Then the same with 40 watt bulb.

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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-20, 1:11 pm

I meant to say replace those caps.

Measure the resistance of of the speaker field coil, it could have a shorted wire to the core.
Check the resistance to the rectifier from ground to each plate. They should be equal, if not then follow the lower resistance path.

Did you notice if there was a blue glow from the rectifier?
If so it would indicate an overload in the power supply DC side.
Capacitors are the prime culprits, look for burned resistors also.

Use your meter to ferrite out, shorts, misswiring, even opens, if the current path has redirected, and no longer has the load, from resistors and caps, it will possibly increase the voltage to above what parts can handle.

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Last edited by Cliff Jones on 2016-11-20, 4:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kps



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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-20, 1:19 pm

Ok thanks again Cliff.  The area of smoke is in the area of the oscillator and short wave/broadcast trimmers.  I think I will start there.
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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-20, 5:12 pm

Thanks again Cliff for taking the time to help me.  Going to LA and back Mon-Tues.  I'll get back with you then.
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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-20, 6:23 pm

Be sure to make notes and diagrams, of the exact position of each wire. This is critical, especially because of the oscillator. Do not replace wires that are not exactly the same length and position. Otherwise you will have problems in alignment, that includes parts.

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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-23, 3:32 pm

Hi Cliff.  Back from LA.  Finished the recap. No hum at all.  Smoke seems to be coming from either the big brown resistor (brown with white cap and black dot) or from the terminal strip that it mounts to. The wire on the middle lug of that strip got so hot that it de-soldered and came of with the slightest touch. The resistor should be 19 M ohms which makes it the R9 resistor on the schematic. When I tested it with my multimeter set on 200K ohms, the reading said right around 23.5. Then after I let it smoke some more while I took pictures, it went up to 34.6.  Does this make any sense?
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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-23, 6:05 pm

Make sure you remove all tubes. Can you test them for shorts?
Power up the radio with tubes removed, to see if it starts smoking.
If so then something is miswired.


Yes R9 is changing value due to heat from too much voltage or current.
Ok, your going to have to do several things.
First, make resistance tests on your new caps. You could have a bad one, yes even new ones can be bad.
1. Sometimes you can still get the polarity wrong after checking it twice. Did you check polarity?
2. Do resistance check on the speaker field, it should read just about 1K if not close then it's shorted.
3. Is the R9 (19K) still correct in its resistance?
4. Is R9 connect to the terminal strip above it, as shown in your pictures?
5. Tell me how many wires are connected each of the solder terminals on that terminal and name what each one is connected to. Such as terminal 1 (left) terminal 2 (center) terminal 3 (right)
So terminal 1 goes to positive wire of c25 , 2Mfd. And positive wire of c25 of 8Mfd. Etc.
Do a resistance check of all 3 terminals and write down. Make sure radio isn't plugged in during resistance checks. And use a jumper wire to short the caps to bleed off residual voltage in the caps, one second on each cap is all that is needed.

Number your answers so I can see what you did. To correspond to each numbered step requested by Me.
--------
You may have to just take a resistance check on each positive side of each cap in the radio.
But just keep that in mind. Resistors are less obvious unless they are either open or shorted.
If you find no problem then each and every wire has to be confirmed that it isn't a designed ground wire.
If you find one that shows a ground that shouldn't, then you have to explore any thing that it's connect to, you may even find a shorted wire touching part of the chassis or another grounding point.
Capacitors have three functions, filter, block or bypass.
So looking at its function is important.

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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-23, 9:50 pm

PS
When you remove the tubes, check and make sure they were in the correct socket. Also make sure that each one is the proper tube number.
They could have been incorrect in the number or socket.

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kps



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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-24, 2:37 pm

Hi Cliff.  I can't see the reply that I sent this AM so I guess I did not send it.  Here goes again.  Happy Thanksgiving and thank you for all of your help!!!
From the top of your last post:
A. I test all the tubes with my multi meter set on sound for a continuity test.  They all check out with no shorts.  Not sure if this satisfies your request.
B. It did not smoke with the tubes removed.
1.The polarity of my two new Ecaps is correct.  The new film caps have no polarity according to the manufacturer.
2. Ok I checked the resistance on the cap across the speaker field.  It was a cap I missed.  .005 uF.
It checked out at .4 with the meter set at 200k ohms. I will order the correct cap and replace it.
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3. R9 checked out at .24 with the meter set at 200 k
4. R9 is connected to Terminal 1 and Terminal 3 of the terminal strip.  I re-soldered Terminal 2 and Terminal 3 but didn't touch the R9 resistor connections to the terminal.  When I did this and powered it up with tubes in, it did not smoke but I have no sound from the speakers.
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5.  See the picture below again Cliff.
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PS All tubes are correct and fit well into there sockets.
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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-24, 8:45 pm

According to the schematic there is no cap between R2 & R8
Tell me what the cap number is that you replaced from the schematic legend. ( C- ? )
Do you have an anolog multimeter?
If so you need to check the capacitors, by using the resistance scales. It isn't used to measure resistance, but to see how fast or slow the capacitor is charging or leaking voltage provided by the meters supplied voltage while in the resistance mode. You have to disconnect at least one lead of the capacitor to do this test. If the needle moves fast then slows down towards the end, that means the capacitor holds a charge, but if it goes full scale immediately then the capacitor is shorted.

Anytime you measure a resistor, or capacitor it must have at least one end disconnected from the circuit. If not you get erroneously measured results.

You need to measure each resistor in the candohm by disconnecting each lead, especially both ends, because there are other paths in the radio that would give incorrect readings. Write those values down. R11= (250 Ohms tab 1 to 2) then (56 Ohms tab 2 to tab 3) then (86 Ohms tab 3 to tab 4) then (5,860 Ohms tab 4 to tab 5) then (11,000 Ohms tab 5 to tab 6) then reconnect the wire to tab 4 and measure to ground, it should show continuity ( 0 Ohms )

Before I forget non polarized capacitors can replace paper capacitors, BUT you have to note if there is a black line on one end that circles the paper cap. The reason for that is to designate that the outer foil of the cap goes to the negative or ground side of the circuit, the reason is to shield the cap from spurious or noisy signals. So see which lead on the new nonpolarized cap has the outer shield on it and mark that end with a permenant marker in the same manner. A better explanation follows on YouTube, see my next post.

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Last edited by Cliff Jones on 2016-11-24, 11:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-24, 11:23 pm


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kps



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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-25, 8:33 am

From the top.
A. This is the area in question.  Perhaps I am misreading the schematic. Anyway I haven't de-soldered any resistor or cap.  I simply cut the leads off of the caps, bent the end of the leads into a hook and then hooked in my cap leads and soldered them.
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B. My multi meter is digital readout but has a center dial that turns to change from resistance to voltage etc
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C.
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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-25, 10:12 am

Thanks for the video Cliff. I do not have an oscilloscope only my multi meter.  So here's my questions for you regarding these film caps.
1. If the cap was wired correctly by chance,  shouldn't it  have a different resistance measurement than if it was wired wrong?
2. What should the resistance of any cap be ideally?
3. Does a cap store the correct voltage if it wired correctly?
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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-25, 11:37 am

Answer to:
1. No it's resistance makes no difference (It does on the other hand if it's leaking)
Capacitors are designed to block DC. Voltage. So when you measure resistance in a resistor, you are seeing DC passing through the multimeter and through the capacitor, which means it's not blocking DC. as it should. Capacitors act as an insulator to DC. When a capacitor is failing that is the only time you should see resistance.

2. You shouldn't be able to read resistance in a good cap (electrolytics being the exception)It should read infinite resistance. Zero resistance means a dead short. Infinite means the resistance is too high to read on a multimeter.
You really need to get into electronics theory to understand caps.

3. Yes in a DC. Circuit
Note: capacitors store and block DC. but capacitors also pass A.C. (such shorting to ground yet not shorting the DC.) Capacitors also pass AC signals to the next circuit while blocking DC to the next circuit.
Capacitors have many functions and electronic theory again is essential to understanding this.


Your red circled cap is C-19. It's the one you marked in your next photo down.
I do see your meter can measure capacitance, using that function is the best way to test for good and bad caps.
Don't ask how that works, as again it's all related to theory and signal generation in the newer multimeters.

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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-25, 1:18 pm

As a follow up, electrolytics use a chemical paste or liquid. Whereas paper caps use impregnated paper usually wax. It acts as an insulator between the foil layers.
Electrolytics form a charge that separate the positive from the negative charges, forming an insulation barrier. If this polarity is reversed by applying the incorrect connection, then it becomes a short circuit and causes other components to fail because of excess current from the shorted capacitor.

When capacitors are in a circuit, they can be used with resistors or coils to charge up a capacitor and then discharge through resistors designed as cycle, which can used in an filter or an oscillator circuit, the filter to smooth out variations in voltage fluctuations, by discharging voltage back to sagging voltage and bringing the supplying voltage back up. When designed as an oscillator component it's constant charging and discharging can be amplified through a tube and it becomes an oscillator. 

Capacitors use this timing function to only pass certain frequencies, and are used in R.F.,  OSCILLATOR, I.F., and audio circuitry. That's why electrolytics are used to filter out hum in power supplies, being electrolytics they can store larger currents for filtering. Instead of microamps or milliamperes of current, electrolytics can store amps of current for filtering action.

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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-25, 1:51 pm

On the checking of tubes, you can check for filament continuity, and interelement shorts.
But it will not check for gaseous tubes or elements that only short when heated.
Other than the heater, you also can't tell if elements are open internally (which is normally not found anyway) you cannot test for emissions quality. So a tube can be tested with a multimeter and found to be  ok, but the tube may be so weak that it will not function in circuit.

That's the reason you may consider obtaining a Tube tester if your budget, and objectives are to restore many radios.

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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-25, 4:24 pm

Thanks Cliff!!.  I will snip the negative lead of each cap to test resistance.  If I get a reading then the cap is bad right?  Except on the electrolytic caps.  When I tested the electrolytic cap 16 uF. it showed a steady climbing reading starting at like 1.3 with the meter set at 200 M ohms.  Is this a good Ecap or a bad one?
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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-25, 5:04 pm

Also I found a mistake in what I told you about the terminal strip that was smoking.  There are two resistors connected to the back of the terminal strip not one.  Not sure if it matters.
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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-25, 6:44 pm

P
oh my! I thought the center solder tab had no connections to start and was just used as a tiepoint for C 25(s) 
The two resistors behind the terminal strip are (R-9 & R-4 ? ) 19 Megohms and 11 Megohms in respect.
Correct??
So that center lug ( terminal 2) should have C-25 (2Mfd +) connected
On terminal 3 (right) should be C-21 (16Mfd +) connected
On R-11 ( candohm ) tab 1 should be connected to (C-21 - ) also the transformer center-tap high voltage should be also, and R-8. (This is common negative)
Back on (C-21 +) should go to the filament connection of the rectifier tube, R-9, and speaker field.
(C-25 + ) should be connected to the other end of speaker field and tab 6 of candohm.
It looks like the mica cap is connected to terminal strip, tab 1 and should be OK.
------
yes as long as it climbs, it shows that the cap is taking a charge. Can you use the capacitor section, of your multimeter, to check its value? Just switch it to the 200uf position. 
Be sure and bleed the capacitor, because when you checked for resistance you put a charge on the cap. If it were charged with power supply type voltages then bleed them down with a resistor of say 5-10 Kohms, that way it won't put a stress on the cap. Leave the resistor connected across the resistor for at least 1 minute just to err on the side of safety.

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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-25, 7:39 pm

Zero.  Maybe I shorted it when the strip started smoking
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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-25, 7:50 pm

I added to my last comment additional info, so re-read previous.

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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-26, 8:04 am

YES!!!!!  So what do you think at this point Cliff?  I must have a shorted speaker field right?  Should I replace the R4 R9 resistors and the 16 uF Ecap? (the one that has zero capacitance)  I have a Hickcock tube tester I-177 but it needs work too. Maybe I should get new stock tubes to replace the old stock. Your thoughts?
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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-26, 10:23 am

"
Not at this point. Disconect one lead of the speaker field and measure its resistance. It should measure around 1000 Ohms.

You did say that it no longer smokes, that's a good sign that there are no shorts.
You also said that you didn't hear any sound.
So two items to check are the speaker voice coil, which should be ok and the audio transformer primary winding for shorts and opens. 
The speaker has the field coil also, so you have the speaker field to test, while the radio is on use a screwdriver on the back of the speaker field to see if it's magnetic, if it's not the field is open.
If it's ok then test the primary of the audio transformer. If it's ok then check the secondary resistance.
If the speaker voice  coil is bad then hook up a speaker with a magnet  even a transistor speaker, try that.

If those are unproductive solutions, then comes the task of signal tracing and replacing caps that you haven't replaced. 
Do you have a signal tracer? 
If not , here's a test you can perform, get a transistor radio turn it on and you turn on the subject radio.
Tune test radio up and down, if the transistor radio starts to squeal. That shows that the oscillator section is working.
Then if yes start at the voice coil for sound, then go to the input grid of the audio output tube.
If no noise then do the same on each previous stage. All the way back to the antenna.
It could be a cold solder joint on a tube, an open or shorted wrong value resistor, or cap
Also an I.F. Could be open or shorted,  a bad trimmer pad, or even a shorted tuner capacitors plate(s)

If those don't provide a solution then you have to start checking voltages.

Just remember to do your tests systematically and write down what tests were done and each results obtained. So if you have to backtrack you will be more proficient next time and see what solutions resolved the problem.

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Last edited by Cliff Jones on 2016-11-28, 8:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-26, 5:05 pm

OK great.  .56 with meter set at 2k ohms. But I hope I clipped the correct lead.
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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-26, 7:42 pm

Now test that capacitor, while the lead is disconnected.

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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-26, 9:13 pm

Ok  C18 paper cap at speaker R is .4 with the meter set at 200k ohms.  Zero capacitance. Are these values expected for an 80 year old paper/wax cap?
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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-27, 11:22 am

No, I don't think your using your meter correctly. You don't read capacitance value on the resistance ranges.
I am confused on your statements.

You need to measure its capacitance, not its resistance.

If you make a statement then be more detailed, such as "I used the meter using the capacitance range and found that it's reading indicated zero capacitance in all ranges, or only the 2ufd range."

Turn your selector, down to the white band at the bottom of your meter. That is your capacitance portion of the meter, then Select the 200ufd position. So when you stated zero capacitance, is this how you tested the capacitor?
Note:
Always start on the highest section in the range and if it doesn't read then go to the next lower range. This is always the safest way to start using any measurement you take, whether voltage , current, resistance  or capacitance until you know what range to use through experience.


Measuring resistance of a capacitor only shows if a capacitor is leaking, the lower the resistance, the more it leaks. The best way to check for good or bad capacitors is by using a capacitor checker, most of those used high voltage which makes the test more valid. With solid state test equipment for measuring capacitors don't use high voltage to test for leakage.

If you get the radio to play, remember like you said, capacitors that old have ended THIER useful life at this point. You may get lucky and they will continue to function. A lot of people think the same thing, and later have to go back and repair again, but if you don't replace, you may end up no being able to find unobtainium parts in the future. Better be safe then sorry, so replace ALL PAPER AND ELECTRLYTICS. Mica capacitors normally are ok and don't need to be replaced.

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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-27, 11:56 am

Sorry Cliff for the confusion. Here in the picture I have the negative lead to the capacitor clipped.  I attached the negative from my meter to the negative side of the cap using an alligator clip.  I am touching the positive lead of my meter to the positive side of the cap. Note the reading on the multi meter is 0 with the meter set at 200 uf.  Not sure what I am doing wrong here.
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PostSubject: Re: Zenith Model 6-S-128 repairs   2016-11-27, 11:59 am

What's wrong with your tube tester? But that's another topic. Let's stick to the radio itself, or we will get confused.
I have asked a couple of the moderators to help out, I should like their experience and expertise at this point. It's always better to have more than one point of view.

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