Westinghouse WR222 Both AM/Shortwave do not function

Frank, I remember a time when you could walk up to the counter of AES when they were on 1st Street in Tempe and George would walk you thru the repair right there on the spot.  If you needed parts, he would grab when you needed, help you fix your set, then charge you for what parts you used.  If you had a question, George was only too happy to help.  His son wasn't quite as knowledgeable as George was, but if he couldn't help, he would ask his dad.  The guys at AES now won't answer questions, won't even tell you if what you want will work for what you need it for.  They just tell you how much and when you can get it.  I will say they are prompt, the pull and ship almost the second they get the order.  Maybe they don't get many orders?

Every time I deal with them, I swear it will be my last.  But.....they are local and they do not normally sell junk.  b7777, I don't have a good answer for you.  My personal experience using known shorted tubes, even if they work okay, has not been good.  I took out a spendy P-P output transformer in a Magnavox stereo just because I was too cheap to pony up for a set of good output tubes, and used old ones that had a partial short in one tube.  You should do what you conscience dictates.  I'd say that getting two new tubes with the same fault would be stretching probabilities somewhat.  Maybe your tube testing techniques are faulty?  Perhaps the original tube is just fine, your testing is perhaps not.  Something about this situation does not add up.

AES sent me a new tube, it is shorted too! Makes a load "motorboat" sound (filament short I guess) just like the other, old tube in works just fine. One thing that is interesting on the tube tester is the old (original) tube shows full brightness, but both AES tubes are partial brightness of the lamp. I kinda want to replace it on cautions side, but if it works could it cause much harm?

Wildcat,

 A friend years back worked at a well known electronics parts store and catalog company. (Not RS either).

 He was about the only person left that had any electronics knowledge and was a Ham.

 He asked them about why they hired only people who knew nothing about electronics and he told me:

" They told him they did not want anybody working there who knew anything about electronics because they were afraid the person would steal parts from them". 

This was about 30 years ago, but it apparently started the trend for a now basically defunct Texas based company where "You have questions, we have blank looks".

I recently bought a 12K7GT tube from AES.  It has a loose base.  It works okay, and, in fact, may have fixed the radio.  The box looked like it came from a swap meet.  I don't collect boxes, but, jeez......

They charge a premium price, yet send whatever falls off on their foot.  They are local to me, so I use them frequently.  The guys at the counter won't give any information at all.  They just hand you the stuff, and take the money.  Actually, they get the money first, THEN hand you the stuff.  I get mad at them every time I do business with them.

BTW, they go by several different names.  Antique Electronic Supply is not the only name they use.  I wouldn't waste my time inquiring to them about a possible bad tube.  It will be your fault, trust me......

I will send tubes to the landfill before I'll sell them tubes via their bid list.  They gave me this song and dance about box condition and tube markings.  The Philco 12K7GT (I had requested Zenith branding) had very little of the markings left on the tube and there was no lid on the box, just a piece of shipping tape.  They wanted to pay me 90 cents apiece for 50C5's then sold them for $11.00 apiece.  I know they have storage and warranty expenses, but I thought that was taking advantage.  I still have them.  Probably enough to last me and ten of my closest friends three lifetimes.....

Good find!


You might want to contact AES on their bad tube. They supposedly test all their tubes at some point, at least that is what they told us when we sold them a batch. They had to test them to make sure they were good before sending payment, and if any mark was on the tube or lettering was missing they would reject it or accept it as "used" only if they needed that tube. The store owner used to put a paint dot on the tubes he sold to show they came from him if customer returned them. They rejected a large number because of the paint dot he put on them. 

Shorts that appear with warmup time are extremely common in outputs and rectifiers. 50L6, 35W4, 6V6, etc. 
Also some can come and go too.

Tapping a tube as you test it can show up many of the shorts. Only tap it with your finger about as hard as you want to be hit on the nose, or a bit less.

My tube tester is a B&K Model 607. The tube I bought is NOS from Antique Electronic Supply. I guess I didn't let the tube warm up enough to show the short, after about a min. pin 8 of the selector knob (which says rotate to test shorts) shows a short. The old tube shows shorts on selector 8 and 11.

New tube? Well there are several things that could be the problem. Pardon the ramblings of an old guy.

 BTW What brand & model T/T do you have? 

 The glass envelope style means very little in most circuits. 
 
The fact the old tube makes the radio work properly is great news. I would say unless the old tube shows short, use it & return the new one for refund. (Tubes can have broken internal welds from rough handling by the "freight apes". 
I have a true story about a certain delivery service where the loaders had a contest as to who could throw a "Fragile" marked package the farthest. Witnessed first hand by one of my customers working on an electrical problem in a local distribution hub several years ago).

Defective new tube. New doesn't mean a lot. Even new & testing good is no guarantee it will actually work. I have had dozens of tubes NIB that were bad from factory.   RCA did make one of the higher quality tubes. 

 You did test yours, you said. Did you by any chance tap the side of it while shorts testing after a minute or so warm up? The greatly increased hum makes me wonder if the filament is shorting out as it heats up. H-K short?

   Some will only show short after or during warm up. Audio outputs are famous for this trick of shorting out when hot. Typically most T/T run lower than in set operating voltages on the elements when testing.

The parameters of the tube could be such that it is out of tolerance for that specific. circuit. (Have had lots of 7A4 & 7F8 tubes NIB that would not work in one radio, but worked fine in another. Same with 6SN7 tubes in TV sets. TV would have no H or V osc and swapping the 2 'Sn7 tubes around would make the set work just fine). Tolerances can change with physical impacts to a tube that change the element spacing. If your tester is an emission type tester, odds are it will not show changes in operating specifications. 

I gotta ask- Was the tube in an original RCA box, and did the box look like it had been opened before?
It was common practice for some dishonest shops to put NOS defective tubes back in the boxes and resell them in the hope they would work in another set. ( If a current dealer got a batch of tubes from a defunct shop, this could easily happen. I bought big lots of tubes and had NIB ones test just fine, but were defective in use.  Some current tube sellers don't test tubes before sale, or even know how to test them.  Also some tube re-branders/ counterfeit tubes were common on the market decades ago.
   I made a post here on the forum on these crooks.

 Also tube mfgr's. did not test every tube, but would pull & test a random sample.

My new tube came in so I swapped it. Turned it on and the just radio hums very loudly, getting louder as the tube warms up, at once I turn the radio off. Swapped in the old tube and it works just fine. What could be different? The tube says 6Y6G just like the old one, it's a bit of a different shape (still ST or coke bottle, just shorter), and possibly a bit newer. Both are RCA brand. Tests just fine on the tube tester, no shorts.

This is confusing!

NOTE: The instructions say to use a 1000 ohm meter to get correct voltage readings
(to match how the factory would have applied to its measurement readings)

If you search for Westinghouse schematic model of the same type it would be a verification of the value if its in the same location.


You wont hurt anything to reinstall it. If it plays normal then don't worry. 
Could be a factory printing error or modification.

I went ahead and ordered a NOS 6Y6G. 
One thing I noticed when I first got the radio but forgot to post about is on the schematic Pin 3 of the 6Y6 is shown as having a 0.1uf capacitor connecting to the tone switch. But mine had a 0.005uf capacitor connected to pin 3 on the 6Q7. I left out the capacitor during the recap due to this confusion. Why would someone modify it like this, does it chance the tone or something?

Pins 4 and 5 on the 5Y3 rectifier will be AC.  Those are the plates.  Pin 8 will be the cathode and will be DC.  Your measurements are reasonable for the most part other than the readings on the rectifier.  If the readings you reported for the rectifier were right, the radio wouldn't work.  The readings you gave sound really low to me.  For learning experience, if for no other reason, you should take those readings again remembering which pins will be AC and which will be DC.  With the exception of the tube filaments and the signal, B+ past the rectifier cathode will be DC.  "Tap and Wiggle" is a recognized and useful diagnostic technique.  Tube testers are not infallible.  How a tube works in a set is the surest test.  You should check the shorted tube again.  If is still shows a short, it might be well to err on the side of caution and replace it.  A shorted tube can cause other issues.  A tube is cheaper than a transformer or other hard to find part.

  I guess when I pulled the tubes out to test them one that wasn't making contact made proper contact. Now it works great! I can't test the SW band yet until WWCR goes to 3MHz, I'll come back when it does.

Thank you for your response! Here are voltages of the tubes:
Fil. and ground/NC not included
-----------------------
5Y3
Pin    Voltage DC
1                -2
2               110
4                 -1
5                -9
6                 1
8                 110
6K7
3                 110
4                   50
6                   -1
6Y6
3                 100
4                 110
5                  -9
6Q7
3                 70
4                   -1
5                   -1
6                  -1
6A8
3                   110
4                   50
5                    -1
6                    110
-------------------------
Edit: Voltages measured with 60W lightbulb on dim bulb tester.
When the volume control is touched it does buzz very loud. So I guess the audio output works? (Maybe my tube tester is faulty? I've never had a tube show shorts before though...)

In many cases, tubes can test nearly dead, yet may work just fine in the radio.  They can also test good, yet fail to work in the radio, particularly converter tubes.

I would recommend you perform directed tests rather than guessing and throwing parts at it.  The first thing you need is an appropriate, clear, readable schematic.  Then, you should start taking voltage measurements at certain critical test points in the chassis.  Start at the cathode of the rectifier, then at the positive terminals of the filter caps, then the plate of the output tube, then the screen, and so forth, from the speaker, back to the antenna.  Place your finger or the business end of a plugged-in soldering iron on the hot terminal of the volume control.  You should get a loud buzz if all is well.  A healthy audio section takes to having its grid tickled the same way a tiger does when you twist his tail.......

The schematic for your radio is the road map for how electricity flows thru it.  Without that, you are lost right from the start.  It will also help you identify which tube pins you need to measure.  Make these few simple tests then get back with us on what you found.  We will be more able to advise the next step after we have more information to work with.  Good luck...

I hadn't checked the tubes yet, so I decided to do that. All tubes were tired but the 6Y6G is shorted/very leaky! Possibly that is my problem?

I have good experience and knowledge with modern electronics, reading schematics, building circuits on perfboard, designing basic circuits, etc. Just not very much experience with SuperHet radio (I understand the basics). As far as test equipment I have a Digital Multimeter, LCR Meter, Oscilloscope, Tube Tester, and Dim Bulb Tester.

Next thing I will do is check the voltages on the tube pins.

We have a good forum for most areas in electronics with that, I would suggest for you to get acquainted with first.

Do You have any books on Electronics that describe about components and have any methods for there applications?

I would suggest these links to get for your improvement in knowledge of repairing.

1. https://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/servicing_old_radios_useful_tips.html

2. https://www.worldradiohistory.com/BOOKSHELF-ARH/Technology/Sams-Books/Sams-Radio-Service-Training-Manual-Rice.pdf


3. https://www.radioworld.com/columns-and-views/roots-of-radio/what-to-do-with-that-old-antique-radio


What Do you have in test equipment I would need to know to help.
Do you have any electronics education?

I think you need to explore for books in https://www.worldradiohistory.com

There are huge references such as Riders books on servicing and also schematics.
The same with Sams Books and Beitmans servicing books and schematics too.

Do you have electronic tools if so list what you have. Because If I am helping, without knowing what you need for the task(s) involved. I might not what methods to inform you.
PS. The schematic was excellent as you can use for values.

http://www.nostalgiaair.org/PagesByModel/275/M0024275.pdf

This copy might be a little better , I am not sure
 Dan in Calgary

Thank you for your response! Here are the schematics I am using: https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/westinghou_wr222.html (Click on schematics tab)

Switches need to be cleaned or your Oscillator circuit may need to be looked at or Mixer.
Look for bad soldering, broken wire or miswired.
You might have an I.F. that may have corrosion on the wires or broken.
I am trying to look for a schematic but no luck yet.
Heres a link from 2012 on the same model.
https://antiqueradios.com/forums//viewtopic.php?t=185211

I have a Westinghouse WR222 AM/SW radio. When I got it I powered it on using a 40W lightbulb in series. It hummed very loudly so I new the filter capacitors were bad. So, I did a full Wax/Filter recap (I left micas alone, they test good with LCR meter). After the recap, no audio except a slight hum at full volume. I tested the oscillator by turning it on near another AM radio tuned to 1MHz, at around 1.3MHz on the WR222 I get funny whines from the second radio. 
Where should I start next on the repair? I apologize I am pretty new to radio restoration so be patient .


Thanks!